AP English Language Period 5

Thursday, April 10, 2008

Pride and Prejudice Second Discussion

Please post a question, comment, or significant quotation about the second reading assignment of Pride and Prejudice by Monday, April 14th. Also comment on one other post by Tuesday, April 15th.

posted by mferrill at 3:41 PM

31 Comments:

  • This comment has been removed by the author.

    By Blogger Hannah, at April 13, 2008 2:00 PM  

  • Seeing as I am the first one posting, I will pose my question. It's simple really, I'm just trying to get some facts straight. But I was wondering why, when Lydia runs away with Wickham, the family hope that they went to Scotland. Why? What does Scotland have to do with their marriage?
    -Hannah D.

    By Blogger Hannah, at April 13, 2008 2:01 PM  

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    By Blogger Kaity M., at April 13, 2008 5:26 PM  

  • This comment has been removed by the author.

    By Blogger Kaity M., at April 13, 2008 5:27 PM  

  • I just have a quote that I think is pretty important and I think have been a turning point in the novel. Elizabeth is saying this on the last page before Chapter 14 in Volume 2 of my version, which is right after she reads the letter Mr. Darcy gave her.
    "'How despicably have I acted!' she cried.-'I, who have prided myself on my discernment!-I, who have valued myself on my abilities! who have often disdained the generous candour of my sister, and gratified my vanity, in useless or blameable distrust.-How humiliating is this discovery!-Yet, how just a humiliation!-Had I been in love, I could not have been more wretchedly bline. But vanity, not love, has been my folly...Till this moment I never knew myself.'"

    By Blogger Kaity M., at April 13, 2008 5:27 PM  

  • First, I'll answer Hannah's question. In the novel, Lydia and Wickham are said to be going to Gretna Green. In my version, that is explained in the footnotes as "A Scottish border town where couples could take advantage of the less restrictive Scottish marriage laws. Minors did not need parental permission to wed." I believe that the Bennets hope that the couple goes to Scotland to marry, thus salvaging their family name as much as they still can.

    My question from the second reading assignment is regarding Charlotte - after marrying Mr. Collins and marrying into his life, is she driven crazy by him, or is she actually happy? Or, is it both?

    By Blogger Abby M., at April 13, 2008 6:36 PM  

  • I'm going to answer Abby's question about Charlotte and her unfortunate marriage to Mr. Collins.

    As for being happy, I think Charlotte is happiest that she is married, regardless of who it is. Charlotte's view on marriage is: "it was the only honourable provision for well-educated young women of small fortune, and, however uncertain of giving happiness, must be their pleasantest preservative from want." Charlotte just needed to be married, especially because it is well know she is a rather plain girl. Happiness is "entirely a matter of chance."
    I do think she is driven crazy by Mr. Collins, but has learned to cope with him. When Elizabeth visits her and, "Mr. Collins could be forgotten, there was really a great air of comfort throughout..." It would be impossible not to be annoyed with a man like him. Sadly it's the life she chose, and going back to the first part of the question, happiness takes the back burner next to a husband with a respectable fortune/inheritance.

    By Blogger allison n, at April 13, 2008 7:09 PM  

  • So, I would like to pose a question that may be opposing most views: could it be possible that Elizabeth is becoming a more stereotypical character as the novel progresses? It seems that as she changes from hating Mr. Darcy to seeing this 'hidden side' of him, she could be becoming more flat. Isn't it a stereotypical moral of a novel for the antagonist to recognize their wrongs? Or, could this be exactly Jane Austen's purpose, to be mocking it all entirely? Just trying to play Devil's Advocate... Any thoughts?

    By Blogger jessica m, at April 13, 2008 7:23 PM  

  • I just have some clarifying questions. Did Lydia understand how wrong it was to run away with Wickham? Also, at this point, who knows the truth about Wickham's history with Darcy besides Elizabeth and Jane?

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at April 13, 2008 8:40 PM  

  • My question has to do with Mr. Collins and Mary. They seem to be a well matched couple. Why does Austen have Mr. Collins marry Charlotte instead of Mary? It makes sense that Mr. Collins would ask Mary because she is the next sister after Elizabeth, but he doesn't. What is Austen's purpose in this?

    By Blogger mvancleef, at April 13, 2008 8:50 PM  

  • I have a question about Wickham's condition on marrying Lydia. On page 289 of my novel, Mr. Bennett says, " ' Wickham's a fool if he takes her with a farthing less than ten thousand pounds.' " Isn't that the same amount Darcy has a year? I know it must be less, because Darcy has quite the inheritance, but this amount confused me.

    By Blogger Megan, at April 13, 2008 9:10 PM  

  • I would like to respond to jessica m's questions. her first was "Could it be possible that Elizabeth is becoming a more stereotypical character as the novel progresses?" No, I don't think Elizabeth is becoming more of a stereotype, at least not of her day. And I don't think she becomes part of what Austen is satirizing. In literature in general I think she becomes the stereotype of the girl who couldn't see love until it slapped her in the face. But I don't think she is a stereotype in Pride and Prejudice. I think the reason she was a more ambiguous character at the beginning of the novel is because the rest of her family was completely stereotypical. But now that this section of the Novel is mostly about Elizabeth, her travels, and her thoughts, her character becomes more clear to the reader. When a character's inner being is no longer a mystery it is easier for the reader to judge it and fit it into a stereotype. But as a stereotype in the novel itself, no, i don't think Austen is creating her to become more of a stereotype. Part of a character being a stereotypical character is that the reader can accurately predict how that character will react to different situations. With Elizabeth I feel that there is still some suspense in seeing what she decides and how she chooses to respond in different situations. what do you think??

    By Blogger nataliem, at April 14, 2008 5:34 PM  

  • I have continued my reading, and will now answer my own question.

    Earlier I asked if Lydia knew it was wrong to run away with Wickham. In the letter to Elizabeth in Chapter Ten of Volume III, Mrs. Gardiner says "[Mr. Darcy] found Lydia absolutely resolved on remaining where she was. She cared for none of her friends, she wanted no help of his, she would not hear of leaving Wickham."

    I interpreted Mrs. Gardiner's statements to mean that Lydia was simply being her same careless, wild self. So it's more of a question of her concern of consequences, and less of her ability to pick right from wrong. It appears she shares this lack of concern with Wickham, coincidently. What a match made in literary-heaven.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at April 14, 2008 6:02 PM  

  • I would just like to continue with Logan's comments about Lydia and Wickham. As I read more into their promiscuous scandal, I can't help but to be shocked by Lydia's complete ignorance of the pain and worry she has caused her family. I know she is a stereotypical character with no depth at all, but can she really be so dense as to not care about what she has done? I suppose, like Logan said, she will always be her wild and careless self but it's just too hard for me to believe!

    By Blogger allison n, at April 14, 2008 7:04 PM  

  • I was wondering if anyone else was suprised by Mr. Collins' letter to the Bennets? (In my book it's on page 286-Chapter 6 on the Third Volume). Basically, he advised Mr. Bennet to disown Lydia forever and supply her with no financial aid of any kind. He even went so far as to say that, "The death of your daughter would have been a blessing in comparison of this." I suspect that this advise is coming more from Rosings than Mr. Collin's himself, but still, his words are very harsh. Is this just another example of Mr. Collins' ignorance, or is there another motivation for his harsh advise?

    To Logan's initial question:
    Judging by the awkward conversations between Elizabeth, Miss Bingley and Georgiana Darcy during Lizzy's stay at Pemberley, I think that Elizabeth, Jane, Darcy and Georgiana are aware of the tension between Wickham and Darcy. Miss Bingley makes a comment about Wickham and Elizabeth observes the embarassment on Georgiana's face. She credits her embarassment to the history between Miss Darcy and Mr. Wickham. It makes sense that Mr. Darcy would share Wickham's actions toward him with Georgiana to deter any relationship growing between her and Wickham.

    By Blogger Amanda W., at April 14, 2008 7:54 PM  

  • I also just have a clarifying question regarding Elizabeth and Mr. Darcy: Why do his manners and affections increase/improve towards her after her denial of his offer to marry her? This especially pertains to when he acts civilly towards Mrs. Bennett, a woman who he clearly dislikes. Also, I don't understand why Mr. Darcy is still in love with Elizabeth. He seemed to be so drawn to Elizabeth because she did not throw herself all over him, but now she seems to be doing the opposite yet he still seems in love with her.

    By Blogger Christine B, at April 14, 2008 8:42 PM  

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    By Blogger Unknown, at April 14, 2008 9:24 PM  

  • would just like to comment on Amanda’s question about Mr. Collins’ letter to the Bennets. I was also surprised that Mr. Collins flat out said that the death of Lydia would have been a blessing in comparison to her running away with Wickham. I think Amanda is very right that this idea is coming from Rosings. When Lady Catherine visits Elizabeth at Longbourn, she comments, “I am no stranger to the particulars of your youngest sister’s infamous elopement. … that the young man’s marrying her was a patched-up business… And is such a girl to be my nephew’s sister?” (this is on page 340 in my book, near the end of chapter 14 in volume 3). Clearly Lady Catherine greatly disapproves of the Lydia/Wickham marriage, so much so that she cannot image her nephew being related to the same family. I think Mr. Collins advice in the letter was a regurgitation of Lady Catherine’s views, and it was another example of Mr. Collins' ignorance.

    By Blogger Unknown, at April 14, 2008 9:26 PM  

  • To answer Logan's question, I don't think Lydia understood how wrong it was to run away with Wickham. She is not exactly the sharpest tool in the shed and I don't think she is aware of his past history as Elizabeth Jane do. I don't think anyone else knows the truth.

    I have a clarifying question, or maybe it is a just wondering question. Does Bingley have any opinion on all of this and does he even know about it? Also I have a discussion question, Do you think Jane will become jealous that Lydia now has a man and she still does not have Bingley?

    By Blogger ChristineT, at April 15, 2008 9:08 AM  

  • I would like to discuss Jessica's question. I don't think that Elizabeth is becoming more stereotypical because if she just continued to hate Mr. Darcy she would turn into a character that frustrates the audience. I don't think by recognizing her wrongs she becomes more stereotypical because she doesn't forget what Mr. Darcy has done and immediately run to him and ask for forgiveness.

    By Blogger mvancleef, at April 15, 2008 10:17 AM  

  • Also on the topic of Lydia and Wickham, one of the things I hated most about Lydia was her lack of consideration for her sisters. Her comment of "They must write to me, for I am a married woman" (Not Exact) perfectly displays this inconsiderateness. I find her a most annoying, naive little girl, but she has a good purpose. When you compare Lydia to Elizabeth, the constrast is so severe it is striking. It is another subtle use of the antithesis Austen is so well-known for.

    By Blogger Hannah, at April 15, 2008 2:02 PM  

  • In response to Christine T.'s question about Jane potentially becoming jealous about Lydia 'getting a man' before her, I would say it is exteremly unlikely. Jane throughout the whole novel has been the stereotypical kind and humane woman, very patient and ladylike when placed in every trying situation. Also, since it is Wickham that Lydia ran away with, Jane would most likely be more worried about her sister's common sense instead of personal marital interest, since she knows Wickhams history. Also, personally, Jane has never struck me as one to be in a hurry for marriage, yes she wants it, but I do not think she will really push to get into an unsuccessful relationship.

    By Blogger jessica m, at April 15, 2008 6:12 PM  

  • I have a question concerning a quotation found in chapter 19 (Volume II) of my book (I think it's chapter 42 for other editions). "[Mr. Bennet] had married a woman [Mrs. Bennet] whose weak understanding and illiberal mind had very early in their marriage put an end to all real affection for her. Respect, esteem, and confidence, had vanished forever; and all his view of domestic happiness were overthrown"(198). Does this quotation suggest that Mr. Bennet does not love his wife? And if that is so, does Elizabeth realize his feelings?

    By Blogger Erin L., at April 15, 2008 8:24 PM  

  • To answer Logan's question, I don't think that Lydia realizes that running away with Wickham is the wrong thing to do. I think that she is so caught up with having a husband that she doesn't pay any attention to how it affects anyone else. She doesn't realize how it affects her family, and only wants to be settled and content.

    By Blogger Kaity M., at April 15, 2008 8:28 PM  

  • In response to Abby’s question of Charlotte’s marriage to Mr. Collins, I do not think Charlotte is truly in love with him. I agree with Allison when she says, “Charlotte is happiest that she is married, regardless of who it is.” Charlotte was so desperate to be married off that she just made due with Mr. Collins. She needed that sense of security and protection that she was taken care of. As Alison quoted, “Happiness is ‘entirely a matter of chance’’, Charlotte might not be happily married to Mr. Collins, but she must tolerate him because he gives her financial security.

    By Blogger Erin L., at April 15, 2008 8:35 PM  

  • In response to Erin, I don't believe that Mr. Bennett loves Mrs. Bennett at all, however I think that many people that were not in love married in the novel’s time period. For example, Mr. Collins did not seem to love Mrs. Lucas, but instead found the marriage practical and beneficial to him. Because the idea of love in a marriage was not common, I believe that Elizabeth does realize that Mr. Bennett is not in love with Mrs. Bennett but it does not evoke any strong emotions in her.

    By Blogger Christine B, at April 15, 2008 9:34 PM  

  • Christine asked why Darcy's manners and affection improved towards Elizabeth after she denied his proposal. I would argue that Darcy acts even more affectionate and civil towards Elizabeth because he has taken her reproof of him to be a more amiable person. On page 352 Darcy says, "My object then [when the two met at Pemberly] was to show you by every civility in my power that I was not so mean as to resent the past; and I hoped to obtain your forgiveness, to lessen your ill oppinion, by letting you see that your reproofs had been attended to." Throughout the couple's encounters in the first half of the novel, Elizabeth teases and corrects Darcy for his "stiffness" of not dancing at balls where "gentlemen were scarce ... and more than one young lady was sitting down in want of a partner" or his inability of "conversing easily with those [he had] never seen before." However, I believe it is much more than this. The strongest elements Elizabeth places against Darcy are the matters of Wickham's history and Darcy's separation of Jane and Bingley. He then wishes to show Elizabeth that he does not have a grudge against her for her ill reproofs, but rather wants to forgive her entirely.

    By Blogger Megan, at April 16, 2008 7:54 PM  

  • I have a few clarifying questions. First, I know Elizabeth’s views towards Darcy have changed but to what extent? I was also confused about Lydia and Wickham getting married. After the truth about Wickham and his bad character comes out, Mrs. Bennet still wants Lydia to marry him. Why is that?

    In response to Erin’s question I think that Mr. Bennet did love Mrs. Bennet at one point but that he doesn’t love her now. I think Elizabeth realizes this and knows that her parents only stayed married because it’s socially acceptable. I think the quote you used really points this out and illuminates why Mr. Bennet acts as he does towards his wife and kids.

    By Blogger LindsayS, at April 16, 2008 9:56 PM  

  • I am just completely appalled by Lydia. In response to Katy's comment i think she is right. I think that Lydia does not know what she does to her family. She says ignorantly on page 312 "But you know married women have never much time for writing. My sisters may write to me. They will have nothing else to do." She is so insensitive to her family and does not realize how she has completely disgraced her family. Almost worse than her, Mrs. Bennet jumps in and is so excited about the marriage she can barely contain herself. To pose a question, do you think Lydia is a foil to Mrs. Bennet?

    By Blogger nataliem, at April 18, 2008 1:17 PM  

  • I know that this comment is quite late but I just have a few thoughts that I wanted to add after reading through most of the comments and completely forgetting to post a blog earlier this week. I agree with a lot of the people in that Lydia does not realize the stress she puts on her family with her decisions. I know from personal experience that selfish acts do not give anyone involved the advantage in the end. But it instead distances everyone in the family. And a question that I was kind of wondering about was if anyone can make connections to characters in previous novels that we have read throughtout the year?

    By Blogger .lauren f., at April 20, 2008 7:16 PM  

  • I would also like to attempt to answer Christine's question as to why Darcy has a sudden change in his presentation and his manners. I think it's because he realizes what he has to do in order to prove himself to her that things could be different if she accepted his proposal. But, on the other hand he could have the jealous fits in him and show her what she is missing out on.

    By Blogger .lauren f., at April 20, 2008 7:25 PM  

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