AP English Language Period 5

Thursday, April 10, 2008

Heart of Darkness Part II Discussion

Please post a question, comment, or significant quotation about Part II of Heart of Darkness by Monday, April 14th. Also comment on one other post by Tuesday, April 15th.

posted by mferrill at 3:29 PM

25 Comments:

  • This comment has been removed by the author.

    By Blogger katie_r, at April 13, 2008 3:51 PM  

  • "I take it, no fool ever made a bargain for his soul with the devil; the fool is too much of a fool, or the devil too much of a devil - I don't know which" (82-83).

    I thought this line (as well as the line following it in the text) was very interesting. What do you think it means and why is it significant?

    By Blogger katie_r, at April 13, 2008 3:54 PM  

  • I don't know on which page this quote occurs in the normal books, but it is near the beginning of part II, about halfway through the first section of reading. Sorry, guys!!

    "When you have to attend to things of that sort [watching for rocks, banks, and firewood], to the mere incidents of the surface, the reality--the reality, I tell you--fades. The inner truth is hidden--luckily, luckily."

    What is the reality that is beneath the surface? What is the "inner truth", and what significance does this have on how we view the deeper messages Conrad is trying to convey?

    -Lauren

    By Blogger Lauren H., at April 13, 2008 4:28 PM  

  • “In a few days the Eldorado Expedition went into the patient wilderness, that closed upon it as the sea closes over a diver. Long afterwards the news came that all the donkeys were dead. I know nothing as to the fate of the less valuable animals. They, no doubt, like the rest of us, found what they deserved. I did not inquire.”


    I thought this quote was really interesting and I am pretty sure Conrad is speaking of the bandits that attacked them. Is he saying that the less valuable animals are the bandits? And when he talks of them getting what they deserved is he speaking of destiny and how he can't control what will happen to him?

    By Blogger Unknown, at April 13, 2008 5:37 PM  

  • We kind of touched on this in class the other day, but I’m still wondering:

    Why does Heart of Darkness seem to have two protagonists? What is the significance of this? Is Kurtz or Marlow truly the “hero” of the story, or, do you think that they have equal roles?

    By Blogger Emilee P, at April 13, 2008 6:25 PM  

  • "We penetrated deeper and deeper into the heart of darkness. It was very quiet there. At night sometimes the roll of drums behind the curtain of trees would run up the river and remain sustained faintly, as if hovering in the air high over our heads, till the first break of day. Whether it meant war, peace, or prayer we could not tell. The dawns were heralded by the descent of a chill stillness; the wood cutters slept, their fires burned low; the snapping of a twig would make you start. We were wanderers on a prehistoric earth, on an earth that wore the aspect of an unknown planet" (58-59).

    This passage describing Marlow's journey into the heart of Africa is also the passage I chose in emulating Conrad's style. I really think this passage typifies Conrad's writing style and is one of the more descriptive passages in this short novel. I love the last line, especially. The phrase "wanderers on a prehistoric earth" overwhelms the reader with disturbing, yet tranquil feelings. So, my question is: What passages did everyone else pick and what made it stand out to you?

    By Blogger matt l, at April 13, 2008 7:39 PM  

  • "And the lofty frontal bone of Mr. Kurtz! They say the hair goes on growing sometimes, but this-ah-specimen, was impressively bald. The wilderness had patted him on the head, and, behold, it was like a ball-an ivory ball; it had caressed him, and-lo!-he had withered; it had taken him, loved him, embraced him, got into his veins, consumed his flesh, and sealed his soul to its own by the inconceivable ceremonies of some devilish initiation" (Conrad 81).

    I really love this passage because it illustrates so well Conrad's humor in his writing along with being a vivid description of Mr. Kurtz. It begins with a slightly comical tone but ultimately shifts to the thought that Kurtz's baldness is a physical analogy to the "wilderness'" "devilish initiation." It is a physical picture of Kurtz's heart of darkness.

    Also, I was wondering if anyone had thought about the significance of the cannibals aboard the ship with Marlow especially when they are contrasted with the pilgrims. Ideas? What do you make of the natives "not wanting Kurtz to leave?"

    By Blogger Spencer Z, at April 13, 2008 8:10 PM  

  • The Russian tells Marlow that the natives attacked his boat because they did not want Kurtz to go.

    I was wondering why the natives like Kurtz and what significance he plays into their way of life? How would the native society be different if Kurtz was not there?

    By Blogger Ryanp, at April 13, 2008 8:11 PM  

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    By Blogger Andie R, at April 13, 2008 9:02 PM  

  • Conrad seems to have a talent for understanding human nature. He observes subtle behaviors that others might miss. His paradoxical description of the Russian particularly struck me because at first it seemed contradictory. The Russian, at 25 years old, is the closest character in age to us and is first described as having volatile emotions: "smiles and frowns [chased] each other over that open countenance like sunshine and shadow on a wind-swept plain." In my copy this quote was on pages 52-53. After Marlow exclaims " 'Here!' ", in reference to the Russian's assertion that as a youth he came to Africa in order to gain more experience, he is then described as being "youthfully solemn and reproachful." I think it is impressive that Conrad would notice a change in behavior that many youth, including myself, exhibit. We adopt different emotions rapidly until someone older appears to question our decisions. The Russian goes on the defensive and becomes "solemn and reproachful", words I do not imagine many adults would choose to describe youth in general when we can be fairly obnoxious at times.

    By Blogger Andie R, at April 13, 2008 9:05 PM  

  • "It takes a man all his inborn strength to fight hunger properly. It's really easier to face bereavement, dishonor and the perdition of one's soul-than this kind of prolonged hunger."
    If the pilgrims are truly cannibals then why do they not eat those that are on the ship? They are described as being crazy and uncontrollable, but from their actions they appear to be the same as everyone else that is on the ship. Is their a reason for the way they are being described?

    By Blogger Thomas_N, at April 13, 2008 9:21 PM  

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    By Blogger Informant0097, at April 13, 2008 11:26 PM  

  • Why do the Marlow and the Russian seem to worship the book "An inquiry into some Points of Seamanship by ...Towser, Townson...Master in his Majesty's Navy?"
    Does it have to do with it being the last link to the society they left behind? Or maybe their their careers as sailors? Why after finding and coveting the book, does Marlow give it to the Russian as if it was of no importance?
    -Annie H.

    By Blogger Informant0097, at April 13, 2008 11:31 PM  

  • I am responding to Thomas's comment concering the cannibals and their surprisingly civil behavior. It is ironic, really, that the cannibals are so well-behaved while the pilgrims are violent and barbaric. For instance, the pilgrims are the ones who open fire on the attacking natives, giving the impression that they have become corrupted by the primitive environment. The cannibals seem to simply do as told without much complaint. I think the cannibals are portrayed as civil to show the disparity between perception and reality. In an undeveloped continent like Africa, it is so easy to make generalizations and I think Conrad is effective in exposing this idea.

    By Blogger matt l, at April 14, 2008 6:52 PM  

  • In response to Spencer's question, "What do you make of the natives "not wanting Kurtz to leave," I believe Conrad is using this to illustrate how greatly Kurtz has become a part of the jungle and of the darkness. At first, the white men intruding into the natives’ homes and land come as a disturbing threat and they fought to keep them away because they were afraid of the danger they brought. But now that Kurtz has become one of them, and they have come to accept him, they do not want anyone else to come and break that "wild" bond they have created.

    By Blogger katie_r, at April 14, 2008 8:09 PM  

  • In response to e prado's question, I don't feel that there is a true hero but out of the two, Marlow and Kurtz, but if one must be chosen then it would have to be Marlow. Unlike most of the Europeans that we have encountered in the story he is the only one that has a true understanding of his surroundings. He does not hold the same prejudice that other white men hold, and it appears that he is still sane after his travels throughout the world. The same can't be said for Kurtz; Africa has changed him, not necessarily for better or for worse but his surroundings have broken into his psyche.

    By Blogger Thomas_N, at April 14, 2008 8:13 PM  

  • In response to Emilee's pregunta, I believe that Conrad use of two protagonists enriches his message. There is at once the description of Kurtz by Marlow and Marlow's actions, choices, and words. This serves to illustrate a man already corrupted (or perhaps liberated?) and contrast that with the continual transformation of the storyteller himself.

    In my opinion, Marlow is the true protaganist. The words we hear pass through his lips, and thus the entire book is telling of Marlow even in his descriptions of Kurtz. HOD is truly a story about Marlow's journey; Kurtz just serves as a focal point.

    By Blogger Spencer Z, at April 14, 2008 8:20 PM  

  • I'm replying to Katie_r's "Fool is too much of a fool"(82-83) comment.
    While reading it in the context of the section, I thought it meant that the fool is so dull that he does not even realize that his soul is being taken, and the devil is to heartless to offer something in return for the treasure he has gotten for free. I think this is a significant line in that it represents the native people being taken for all they are worth and having no real grasp on how horribly they are being treated.

    As for the next line, I think this is directed at people who will sit idly back while terrors like the Genocide in Sudan take place and say that it is all god's will. They think that He will fix all suffering when absolution comes, and make no attempt to better the situation themselves.

    I also have another question; what is the "shade of Mr Kurtz?"(83)

    By Blogger Informant0097, at April 14, 2008 8:25 PM  

  • “Going up that river was like traveling back to the earliest beginnings of the world, when vegetation rioted on the earth and the big trees were kings. An empty stream, a great silence, an impenetrable forest. The air was warm, thick, heavy, sluggish. There was no joy in the brilliance of sunshine. The long stretches of the waterway ran on, deserted, into the gloom of over-shadowed distances. On silvery sand-banks hippos and alligators sunned themselves side by side.” pages 49-50 in my book


    In response to Matt's question this is the passage I chose for my emulation. The reason why I chose this passage is because of the impressive description that is used by Conrad. Also I feel like the passage really illustrates Conrad's powerful voice which I hoped to emulate. Overall, I enjoyed the appealing images of the passage and I felt like it did a great job of portraying the typical writing style of Conrad.

    By Blogger Ryanp, at April 14, 2008 8:52 PM  

  • To respond to Lauren's question I don't think there is one specific reality he is referring to in that quote. I think he is commenting on how we tend to convince ourselves so thoroughly that there is some unknown motive for everything that we miss reality; we concentrate so hard on trying to pin everything down that we read too much into it. It's lucky that the truth is hidden because otherwise we would lose the ability to judge things and people. If the inner truth is hidden, it wouldn't be much of a truth if it could be found. I think a truth is impossible for humans to find because someone else will always disagree. It's the pursuit of such a truth that counts.

    By Blogger Andie R, at April 14, 2008 8:56 PM  

  • I'm still not sure I'm completely sold on dark imagery being positive in this novel. I've found a couple examples where dark imagery seems to be negative. On page 16, for example, Marlow describes a woman as "Old knitter of black wool. Morituri te salutant," and speaks of an eery, fateful feeling when she looks at him. And earlier on, Marlow mentions that his successor's demise was caused by a disagreement over two hens--two black hens. Then, on pg. 54, Marlow describes, "a treacherous appeal to the lurking death, to the hidden evil, to the profound darkness of [the jungle's] heart." And again, on pg. 82, Marlow questions, "how many powers of darkness claimed him for their own." These all sound like negative connotations to me. This whole book is supposed to be about the journey inside the soul, into the depths of hell. That doesn't sound very positive to me. Or am I just reading it in the wrong context? Has anyone else noticed these lines or other passages to be contradictory in the sense that darkness seems to symbolize evil and corruption instead of positive concepts?

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at April 14, 2008 9:04 PM  

  • In response to Lauren’s question:

    I think that here Marlow is discussing the morality of the white men and what they are doing in Africa. In this passage he describes the scenery as looking at you with a “vengeful aspect” but soon, he says, “I got used to it afterwards.” He describes this “getting used to” nature as if it embodies the white men’s attitudes as a whole. Many white men that Marlow has met on his journey have become blinded to the hurt they are causing because of the obsession over what they want to accomplish. They only see the “mere incidents of the surface,” literal, physical things such as ivory, and not the damage they are causing to the African people. The inner truth, the reality, of the harm they are generating is seen with a blind eye, overlooked and easily dismissed.

    By Blogger Emilee P, at April 15, 2008 9:31 AM  

  • I am responding to Ryan P's comment about why the natives like Kurtz so much. Again, I don't have the page number, but when they're out in the woods (in the paragraph beginning with "I had immense plans"), Marlow says, "I had to deal with a being to whom I could not appeal in the name of anything high or low. I had, even like the niggers, to invoke him-himself-his own exalted and incredible degradation."
    This leads me to believe that they honestly regarded him as a god, possibly because of the manner in which he carried himself and his incredible power over them. They both respect and fear him (after all, he placed heads on stakes in his front yard).
    I can't figure out exactly why they cling to him so strongly, but the text indicates that they see him as a god.

    By Blogger Lauren H., at April 15, 2008 8:30 PM  

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    By Anonymous Anonymous, at April 15, 2008 8:41 PM  

  • In response to Ryan's comments/questions:

    You are right; Marlow is refering to the group of bandits that were staying at the station. And yes-- Conrad IS saying the bandits are the less valuable animals when compared to their donkeys. I think this is one of the best examples of Conrad's sense of humor we've come across so far. As for the bandits, "[finding] what they deserved," perhaps it is an allusion to fate, or an evil end to evil means in a jungle that seems to have a (dark) heart of its own.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at April 15, 2008 8:42 PM  

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