AP English Language Period 5

Tuesday, January 29, 2008

Second Dorian Gray Discussion

Share additional comments about today's second Dorian discussion here.

posted by mferrill at 12:35 PM

8 Comments:

  • It's interesting that Wilde never describes Lord Henry's physical features. There is no evidence that this man who places so much emphasis and weight on outer beauty possesses it himself. There are references to gestures and his hands, but not much else. He's almost like a cobra or a hypnotist, entrancing others with his eloquent words and gestures but not with his beauty. He may not be ugly, but if he did possess a credible amount of beauty surely it would have been remarked upon. Perhaps he is so determined to corrupt Dorian because then he could control beauty even if he himself does not have it. Hitler exhibited some similar behavior: he was very persuasive and placed emphasis on blue eyes and blond hair though he lacked it.

    Henry also doesn't seem very pleased with life despite appearing to be a hedonist. He is often described as looking bored. He seems to take more interest in the pursuit of happiness than actual happiness. I think he took an initial interest in Dorian mainly because Basil was so interested in him; he wanted to steal Dorian from Basil and corrupt him just to show he could.

    I think Dorian gets so angry when Sibyl acts so horribly because he sees himself in her. Her acting is as wonderful as his beauty. When she loses that ability it forces Dorian to remember that his beauty will fade as well. He is no longer able to imagine them as a fairytale couple that is unaffected by time. Without her acting and his beauty, both of them are empty according to the beliefs Henry has instilled in him.

    Why would Wilde have Dorian and Sibyl fall in love so unbelievably quickly? Is it love at all?

    By Blogger Andie R, at January 31, 2008 5:27 PM  

  • That's an interesting point Andie brings up, I guess I had just assumed an image in my mind of what I thought that Lord Henry had looked like based upon the amount of eloquence in his speech.

    In response to the comment that L. Henry never really believes anything he says (always followed by Basil telling him he doesn't "really believe that"), I think he may just be doing experiments on people...saying certain things to see what their reactions will be. But he may or may not believe it truly, no one really knows, just like how Wilde lived his own life, and that if the norm was that everyone had been homosexual, he would have been straight. Always swimming upstream just to ruffle people's feathers.

    Does art imitate life or does life imitate art?
    I think people whose lives are OBSESSED with beauty, imitate art. They see a masterpiece, and want their lives to be continually like that, perfect: unspoiled, no mistakes; although they cannot achieve it.
    But those who truly UNDERSTAND beauty, understand the significance of the spoilings and mistakes, which make up the perfection. And in those cases, art then, imitates life.

    By Blogger katie_r, at January 31, 2008 7:26 PM  

  • I think that the Dorian-Sibyl relationship became an engagement so quickly because of Dorian’s personality. Upon meeting Lord Henry, Dorian became infatuated. He was so obsessed with Henry and Henry’s ideas that he immediately begins cancelling plans with Basil to spend as much time as he can with Henry. Later, when Dorian meets Sibyl backstage, he becomes obsessed with her because of her talent. On page 88, it says, “He had dreamed of her as a great artist, had given his love to her because he had thought her great.” Sibyl may not have the influence over Dorian that Henry has, but she does captivate his interest enough to draw Dorian to the theater every night.

    I agree with Andie’s comment about Sibyl’s sudden change in acting ability reminding Dorian that his beauty will someday fade as well. I think this is the reason Dorian got so angry with Sibyl. His “love” for her was based entirely upon the characters she had played, not who she was herself. When describing Sibyl to Lord Henry, Dorian says, “I left her in the forest of Arden, I shall find her in an orchard in Verona” (pg 74). He talks about having the “arms of Rosalind” around him and being “kissed by Juliet on the mouth” (pg 74). He describes his relationship with Sibyl by referring to the time he spends with characters she plays rather than the time he spends with her. I don’t think their love is real, especially since something as trivial as bad acting can end the relationship.

    As to Dorian’s changing picture, I believe it represents Dorian’s soul, and as Dorian continues to lose the innocence that made him beautiful, the picture will get uglier. In the preface, it says, “It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors.” I found this interesting because the picture hangs in Dorian’s house, so in a way, the picture observes Dorian the man as he comes and goes. In a way, the painting of Dorian is both the observer and the art mentioned in the preface.

    By Blogger Unknown, at January 31, 2008 7:46 PM  

  • I agree with Andie about Dorian's love for Sibyl. Dorian must have felt he had met an equal when he saw her perform so beautifully. Then when she became real to him and she lost her flawless abstract beauty she became less appealing. It makes me wonder why Sibyl loved Dorian though. Was she in love with him for only his beauty as well?

    I think Wilde might have made the two of them fall in love so quickly to demonstrate the mental unrest of Dorian. He has been struggling with his identity since Henry pointed out how amazingly beautiful he is, which only set Dorian into a panic about losing his youth and innocence. His impulsive and short-lived romance reflects his inner conflict and his confusion.

    Kelly made an interesting observation about the spectator of the art, however I am still trying to figure out how the portrait relates to Basil. At the beginning of the book the entire drama of the painting began when Basil claimed there was too much of himself in it. If Basil is truly "in" the painting, what does the altering of the painting mean? Perhaps it was painted as a representation of Basil's personal view of Dorian at that time, in all his beauty. The fading beauty of the painting may reflect Basil's decreasing interest and admiration for Dorain.

    To me, Dorian seems to be a weak character without a voice of his own. Do you think Dorian is a genuine person, or only the product of his environment?

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at January 31, 2008 9:45 PM  

  • I noticed throughout the discussion on Tuesday that no one brought up any possible motifs for The Portrait of Dorian Gray and I have observed the reoccurring image of roses. What theme does this motif enhance and why did Oscar Wilde choose the image of a rose? Is the rose symbolic for aestheticism?

    By Blogger anam, at January 31, 2008 9:52 PM  

  • Here is just some random comments:

    After Sibyl’s suicide, death hits Dorian right in the face, don’t you think it is logical that he wants to live in the moment and defy death by staying young forever?

    Perhaps the portrait has not changed. Dorian perceives that it is his soul because he know what he is like on the inside. And Basil, when he sees the portrait in the old schoolroom, just sees Dorian for who he is for the first time. (he says while looking at it, “it was Dorian Gray’s own face”) Therefore, because Dorian feels vulnerable he believes he must be rid of Basil.

    Basil has always adored Dorian but when he see that portrait he is aware that he has been worshiping a “wolf in sheep’s clothing.” This comes as a blow to Basil and I believe if Dorian had not killed Basil, Basil would have committed the act himself.

    Dorian destroys those around him not only because he fears their judgement and their closeness to him; he “kills” them for the fear of someone seeing him age. He is either not completely convinced of the vow he made or he feels invincible (and is completely narcissistic) and believes he does not need anyone else.

    Logan asked, "Do you think Dorian is a genuine person, or only the product of his environment?"

    I think at first Dorian was overly sheltered and kept completely innocent. A logical and common response to this is to rebel and strive for corruption. This is exactly what Dorian does. However, we know the corruption started with Lord Henry but I am unsure if he would have maintained his innocence even if Dorian had never met him. Therefore, I think Dorian’s character is just a magnified version of what the average person would do in his situation.

    By Blogger Emilee P, at February 03, 2008 4:12 PM  

  • I would like to address one of Logan's comments that she had in her post about Dorian's portrait and how Basil informed Henry that he put too much of himself in it. This seems like a very important attribute to the story and leads me to wonder if there is any of Basil in the painting after it changed? I agree with her that Dorian's fading picture is Basil's loss of interest, however I wonder if it could also be representative of Basil's loss of influence on Dorian as well. Since he met Lord Henry, Dorian adopted more of his ideals and less of Basil's. Could the portrait have been a painting of Basil that has now changed to reflect Lord Henry?

    By Blogger jessica m, at February 04, 2008 12:58 PM  

  • I'd like to comment on a few ideas circulating in this blog.

    Logan's question as to why Sibyl loved Dorian is an interesting one. We don't know a lot about Sibyl, but I think it is simply because Dorian is infatuated with her. The comments in this blog have basically established that no true love existed in their relationship; thus, Sibyl exhibits pure human nature in that one naturally is drawn to another who openly likes him/her.

    I disagree with Emilee's statement that Dorian is merely acting as an average person in this situation. I do not think Dorian is average or normal at all; he is a weak and narcissistic character. I believe that, had he not met and been influenced by Lord Henry, Dorian would have remained innocent and simple. An aspect of the novel and Dorian specifically that I've noticed is that Dorian seems to have everything handed to him. For his relatively "easy" life, he causes a lot of strife for himself. People often commend or forgive him only for his beauty, and he utilizes it like an eternal hall pass.

    By Blogger Abby M., at February 10, 2008 5:12 PM  

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